Charlene Hughes

Charlene Hughes

BOQ-037

Charlene Hughes

Karen Musgrave

2/12/09

C&T Publishing

Honolulu, Hawaii

Kim Greene

Karen Musgrave (KM): This is Karen Musgrave and I'm conducting a Quilters' S.O.S. - Save Our Stories interview with Charlene Hughes. Charlene is in Honolulu, Hawaii and I'm in Naperville, Illinois so we are conducting this interview over the telephone. Today's date is February 12, 2009. It is now 5:12 in the evening and Charlene thank you so much for taking time out of your day to talk to me.

Charlene Hughes (CH): It is my pleasure Karen.

KM: Please tell me about your quilt "KAPA APANA."

CH: I called it that because it means an appliquéd quilt in Hawaiian and it is a small piece but it shows not just women quilting around a table, because that is what your eye is going to see immediately, but it shows women of different ethnic groups and different cultures. Even though I didn't embroider a face on each one, you can tell from their hairstyles and their skin color that they belong to different cultures. They are sitting down making something beautiful in harmony and enjoying themselves. One of the things they are doing is they are appliquéing a Hawaiian quilt which has a certain of--I don't know what to call it, identity, I guess, of its own and the pattern that they are using is the Ulu or the Breadfruit Pattern. There is a myth here in Hawaii that if you make that pattern as your first quilt that you will never go hungry because you will always have fresh food on the table (the breadfruit) and you will always be a quilter because it is one of the Hawaiian easiest patterns to do. It is totally appliquéd by hand and totally quilted by hand and I've made several Hawaiian quilts and it usually takes me about a whole year to hand quilt a large king size Hawaiian style quilt. When I say Hawaiian style I mean that it is usually two colors with a strong value contrast, like red and white, green and white, just really strong colors that kind of hit you in the eye. The appliqué part is cut out in one piece and it is cut when the fabric is folded on the eighth so that when you open it up you have the entire pattern. When you are done cutting the entire pattern is to be laid out exactly on certain lines, like up to the corners and down through the middle. It is hand appliquéd to the background and then the quilting goes round and round, echo style. It is like throwing a pebble into a lake and the ripples just ripple out, out, out. Nothing is done with harsh lines like on the diagonal. It is just plain, regular quilting. You are rippling out from the pattern and each line comes about 5/8 inches from the line before. It is quite beautiful when it is done. I can tell you a little story about how all this supposedly happened, this type of Hawaiian quilting but I will get into that later. This particular quilt says at the bottom, 'Na Po'e Humukuiki O'Hawaii' and it means 'the people of Hawaii who are cutting out designs and making a quilt.' 'O'Hawaii' means 'of Hawaii.' At the top of the quilt it says, 'E Komo Mai,' which means 'welcome, or please come in.' The border is a pieced border of random fabrics that I used in the ladies dresses and I just tried to make the whole thing look like it was a room. The background is supposed to look like wallpaper and I chose brown to look like wood. The ladies are all sitting on stools and they have little, they have [laughs.] big cones of thread on the floor next to them. That's about all I have to say about that quilt.

KM: How do you use this quilt?

CH: This quilt is really made not for the bed and it's made simply as a wall piece and I made it because I think this is typical of Hawaii. We don't even think of what culture we belong to, we all come together and we all share different ideas. On Honolulu in particular, even though we are in the middle of the Pacific, we have a lot of military wives in our guild. They come for two or three years and then they are transferred, but they bring us a lot of new ideas from the mainland that we would never be exposed to otherwise. The melting pot of Hawaii [laughs.] really gives us opportunities to share ideas and creativity.

KM: This quilt is included in the Obama exhibition ["Quilts for Obama: An Exhibit Celebration of our 44th President."] at the Washington, D.C. Historical Society. How did that come about?

CH: Roland [Freeman.], wanted quilts (-this is what he told me) he wanted quilts from areas that were influential in Barack Obama's life. The President was born here in Hawaii and did go to school here. In fact, many people here still remember him from his school days I think that this quilt for women, and for all of us who live in Hawaii shows the harmonizing effect that we have in working and playing and enjoying life together.

KM: How did Roland find you?

CH: I did ask him that. He said he found me on the computer but I think we have a friend in common. I'm a docent at the Honolulu Art Academy and there is another docent who travels to Washington [D.C.] quite regularly. He knows her and I think that is how my name came up. I don't really know for sure.

KM: You have a second quilt in the exhibit. Tell me about it.

CH: This is a quilt that is called "Kuu Maui Aloha" which means My Beloved Maui. It is a typical example of what I just explained to you, using two bright colors with high value contrast. It is not cut on the eighths because it is a reproduction of one of the kings of Hawaii; his coat of arms. That was King Kalakaua and everything on the quilt is very symbolic. The leaves that you see that look like a U shape near the bottom of the quilt represent maile lei. Maile is a very fragrant, the leaves are very fragrant when they are crushed. They grow high on the mountains and at one time only the elite alii, which were the royalty in Hawaii, were allowed to wear these maile lei. Even today maile lei are given for big celebrations like graduation, baby's birth and usually to the man. In fact maile lei, any lei, can be given to a pregnant lady, but you can't make the lei closed. It has to be hanging open and usually maile lei is open like this. The quilt shows the king's crown and I think you can see this. Then there are the red, white, and blue stripes which represent each of the major Hawaiian islands.

KM: Tell me about your interest in quiltmaking.

CH: My interest started I think a long time ago. I was going to tease you and say when I was just a baby. [laughs.] [KM laughs.] but it started in the beginning of the eighties and that was just a little [maybe five years.] after the quilt revival was starting; people were starting to quilt again. I lived on Maui. There was no teacher on Maui. There was a lady who was teaching Hawaiian quilting on the other end of the island in Lahaina and I lived on the other side. I lived up in Pukalani and that is what we call upcountry. It has half way up the volcano, Haleakala. I did go over to her and ask to be in her class and that was fine, but once she found out I was a local person, I was living on the island, she really didn't want me in class. She was local, she didn't want to teach me any more. I don't think she wanted the competition. She liked to teach what we call "snowbirds" people who would just fly in and use their condo during the winter and she also liked to teach people off the tourist ships: the big ships that came in and that was fine, but it didn't help me [laughs.] People say 'oh you are self-taught', well no, I learned from books so there was communication with teachers, I just couldn't answer back. [laughs.] There were only two books in the Maui library on quilting then.

Eventually there was this enormous explosion of quilting, with fabrics that weren't available then, books, classes, guilds; it is just incredible that all started. That is how I learned. We do have big name teachers come to Hawaii, like Libby Lehman and I just can't think of all the teachers I've had over the years teaching, Joen Wolfram, I probably should have made a list for you, but I have taken a lot of classes from people and (deleted)every time I take a class it's just wonderful for me. We are kind of "stuck" out in the middle of the Pacific; we don't have the advantages of being able to jump in our car and go to the nearest quilt show. We've got to give the quilt show ourselves. [laughs.] I have been to Texas, to Houston, for the International Quilt Show three different times. You can do it if you want to and if you are inspired to do that, to go to the mainland, but you can't do it that often, it is too expensive and flying is so complicated. That is how I learned.

KM: What age did you start quilting?

CH: At what age? I was an adult. I think the first quilt I made was for my parents' anniversary and I still have that quilt. That was really the first big quilt I made although I had started hand quilting smaller pieces.

KM: Do you typically hand quilt everything?

CH: I did only hand quilting until maybe, I don't know ten years ago. I started incorporating machine quilting and now I have turned to doing art quilts and they satisfy a certain creativity in me rather than following a pattern. I don't use patterns much any more. What was your question?

KM: How many hours a week do you quilt?

CH: I usually try to get in a couple of hours every day. When I said it took me a whole year to make a hand quilted, a king size Hawaiian quilt, that doesn't mean I sat down and quilted for eight or ten hours a day, that means I went on with my regular life, you know wash clothes and did grocery shopping and read books and did social things. I do try to quilt at least two hours a day.

KM: My question about hand quilting versus machine quilting.

CH: Oh I know what you were asking me, you were asking me about the sewing machine. All of my quilts have some hand quilting on it, still yet, even though I am doing art quilting. I find ideas just popping out of my head and I want to do them and I want to try it and so to sew on the machine may not give me the same satisfaction as hand quilting but I do get a lot of quilts out [laughs.] I do hand quilting mostly in the evening.

KM: Do you still do Hawaiian style quilts?

CH: Yes, I just sewed a large pillow that was 20 [inches.] by 20 [inches.] and that was all Hawaiian quilting. I won't do a king size quilt anymore. I just have too many other things I want to try. They are certainly beautiful. I don't know if you have ever seen a king size Hawaiian quilt that is done by a master quilter, they are just outrageously beautiful.

KM: I actually have and you are so right. What is your first quilt memory?

CH: That is a good question Karen, I don't really know. I come from a family where nobody in the family quilted and that is so unusual [laughs.] that I almost feel like I'm a mutant or something [laughs.]. My mother never quilted and neither of my grandmothers ever quilted or knew anybody that quilted. No aunties quilted. I don't know where that came from or anything and they all went, 'Oh how boring. Oh we don't understand that at all.' [laughs.] I have two daughters that are adults. They are married. They are not the least bit interested in quilting. I don't know [laughs.] maybe I got picked up off the street or something [KM and CH laugh.] by mistake. I don't remember what first interested me in quilting. I wanted to do something special for my parents' anniversary and I thought that would be special. It actually made the newspaper over in Maui. [laughs.]

KM: Wow.

CH: That is what got me started, that first the big one for them. I was not professional but I understood what I was doing more than in the beginning when I was kind of bumbling along. That particular quilt was finished in 1985.

KM: It made the paper. What did it look like?

CH: It was different blocks and I asked my mother's sister, my auntie, to make some blocks and her daughter-in-law to make some blocks, but we didn't have a lot of relatives. Each of my daughters did one. They were young girls, like five or something at that time, so there are only about maybe six to eight quilt blocks from others in that quilt. The center piece, the center block I enlarged a picture of my mother in her old-fashioned wedding dress [laughs.] and flowers. She was carrying this huge bouquet and then I had "For Better or Worse" in letters that I appliquéd on. It was just pictures of their life that were either embroidered or pieced, like my dad teaching me to ice skate and their home. They bought a house and that was big news at that time; just different things like that about their lives. It was quite touching, my mother and dad both were really cracked up about it..

KM: The guild, your quilt guild. Tell me about your quilt guild.

CH: [this is about the Maui Quilt Guild.]You know quilting is a pretty solitary [laughs.] hobby to have. (Deleted) We don't have bees like they used to have. It isn't a social get together usually and I just felt like there was so much to learn, that if there were other quilters on Maui I needed to know who they were. I made a sign up and I put it in the grocery stores like Foodland and Safeway and those kind of stores and I said, 'Starting a quilt guild. If you are interested, please come.' I thought that even if two people came I was still going to start that quilt guild and forty women showed up. Nobody knew each other.

KM: How cool.

CH: [inaudible, both KM and CH talking at same time.] For quilting, they came.

KM: What year was this?

CH: I started it in '95 although I think we didn't become a non-profit organization until the beginning of '96. So they actually count the anniversary '96. Now they have almost 200 members I believe. I tell you [laughs.], this you probably shouldn't put in Karen, I went back to Maui about a year and a half ago and I particularly chose to go back at a time I knew there would be a quilt guild meeting because it only meets once a month and I walked in and people said, 'Who are you?'

KM: Oh.

CH: I founded this quilt guild.

KM: How sad.

CH: Things change.

KM: Yes, they do change. Nothing stays the same, right.

CH: That is right. They were shocked. [laughs.] They went, 'Oh we wondered how this guild started.' [laughs.] Anyway, they are really doing great things on Maui. They are doing a lot of art quilting over there, which we don't do over here very much. [on Oahu.] Over here they have show and tell, when I say, 'over here,' I mean in Honolulu. They have show and tell at the end of guild meeting and the quilters get up and talk about the quilt they have in progress right now or they talk about something they just finished and they hold it up for us to see. Most of them are traditional quilters. In other words, mostly they follow a pattern so when they do anything that is a little bit--I don't want to say creative, but a little bit nontraditional they will get up and say, 'Oh this is a Charlene quilt.' And I go, 'Oh my God.' [laughs.]

KM: How cute.

CH: My reputation I don't think is very good. [laughs.]

KM: I think it is actually very good.

CH: [laughs.] They are really cute. I keep telling them they have a creative somebody inside of them that needs to get out. I told you I'm a docent at the art academy so I do tend to keep pushing and pulling them into the art world, they are screaming all the way. We are getting more and more people that are doing things that are painterly. I will finish that thought, they are doing more things like dyeing their own fabric and they understand what discharge dyeing is and things like that but now I lost it again. I tell you this interview is going to be a disaster.

KM: It will be fine.

CH: Oh I know what I was going to tell you. I wanted to start an art group within the guild group because they are such traditional quilters. I didn't want it to be like with a president or anything. I just thought we could get together at each other's homes maybe once a month and plan some new thing that we hadn't tried before, like hand dyeing fabric and just all different aspects e.g., embellishing a quilt, photo transfer, all the things that maybe they wouldn't try otherwise. There are 200 members in the Honolulu guild. There isn't another quilt guild on this island. That is it. Granted, some of them are off island, they are on the mainland, they moved or something and they keep up their membership here, but still there are 200 members, so I thought the same thing as I did with the Maui guild. I bet there are some art quilters or people would be interested in that. So Karen, guess how many people responded to my plea?

KM: How many?

CH: Three out of 200 so that was not a good idea, I guess. At least they are not ready for that right now. They have one on Maui. They have a special art group. You know the Studio Art Quilters, well you should know, they came out of Illinois didn't it? The Studio Art thing.

KM: No, the Studio Art Quilt Associates, no that came out of California.

CH: No, no there is one that came out of Illinois, I'm sure there is I just can't think of the name. I know the quilters from like many years back, maybe twenty years back, that were big quilters. Yvonne Porcella.

KM: Right Yvonne Porcella is from California and she started.

CH: Nancy Crow out of Ohio.

KM: Are you talking about Caryl Bryer Fallert?

CH: Yes.

KM: She is in Kentucky now.

CH: I don't know why the interest just isn't there. Maybe we have a lot of new quilters that are just not ready to branch out into something. You know what is happening here. I don't know if this is happening on the mainland but when we have a show now it says the quilt was made by. like Mary Smith, the pattern is by Susie Jones, its long arm machine quilted by somebody else, and I see people stand in front of it and go, 'Well what did the quilter do exactly?' [laughs.] I mean it was quilted by someone else, it is not her pattern and they just don't know; it is like it doesn't belong to the quilter almost. I find that very discouraging.

KM: What advice would you offer someone starting out?

CH: To take as many classes as they can, to read as much as they can, to try things. Like stippling a quilt is a very, kind of a difficult thing to get the hang of and it is kind of like patting your head and rubbing your stomach, but once you've got it, you can sit down and do it anytime. But you have to practice first, you've got to make a few mistakes and I think probably not to get discouraged by your mistakes, we all make them.

KM: What are your favorite techniques and materials?

CH: Cotton of course, but I do use strange materials in a lot of my quilts. Like I said I'm more of an art quilter now and the two quilts actually that are in this show ["Quilts for Obama: An Exhibit Celebration of our 44th President."] are not representative of the kind of work that I'm doing now.

KM: What is your work like now?

CH: I'm kind of doing more, I think more abstract quilting and non-figurative work, although I just finished a portrait quilt of a Hawaiian quilter, thee master Hawaiian quilter, whom I greatly respect, Gussie Bento. Even that, how long ago were portrait quilts coming out? Fifteen years ago? Even that people are going, 'Oh.' I entered in an art show and they say, 'Wait a minute that is quilt.' I say, 'Yes, it is a quilt. Good for you.' It says 'all media' but they are just stunned with things like that. In many ways, I think you are stepping back when you come into quilting in Hawaii. You are stepping back about fifty years in quilting because people just can't stretch their minds around doing something different than the Ohio Star. I sound like I'm crabbing about it. [laughs.] I get very down when I see people who won't think outside the box.

KM: It is a good thing you are there.

CH: I'm not too sure [laughs.] it isn't so good if you want to get along. [laughs.] I enter; I do better in art shows and I've done very well. I have lots of blue ribbons that come from art shows. When it says "all media," I'm there. I want people to see the quilt as being beyond being useful and being a blanket. I want them to see it as fiber art, as art. I'm up on my soap box here.

KM: That is okay, it is a good soap box. Do you think of yourself more as an artist or a quiltmaker?

CH: Yes, I do. I do and I hope nobody from the guild hears that, because that will hurt their feelings.

KM: Why will that hurt their feelings?

CH: Because--- I don't know, it just does Karen. I don't know it is kind of, they think I'm saying something like I'm better than you are or something. I don't know why. The whole group is very, okay this should be off the record but I'm going to tell you about two years ago. I suggested that the annual show have the little fabric postcards. They had never seen that out here. Now that is old news.

KM: They are fun to make.

CH: Okay so I suggested it to the president [of the guild.]. Well, you should have heard the remarks I heard. Number one, it wasn't really a quilt for the quilt show. Number two, it would take up too much room on the gallery floor to display these things. Number three, I can't even remember all the things. I was just stunned and so I said, 'Okay forget it. [laughs.] It was just an idea.'

KM: Wow.

CH: Even now since I've been in the show for Barack Obama, Roland wrote back to me that there are two or three Quilts for Obama shows or additions to quilt shows going on now, but he said, 'Remember we were the first and original one,' and I said 'Yes, you were Roland.' The more I thought about it, the more I thought, 'Hey, this President was born here. We should be doing something like this.' We are going to have a big quilt show in April or May. I asked the president if she would ask the board if we could set aside one wall or some little space that we could have Quilts for Obama and I tell you Karen that was the wrong thing to do [laughs.] and if I ever open my mouth again stop me. [KM laughs.]. It was terrible. That is how I started our conversation before we were even on tape about people are--I just don't know.

KM: That is kind of sad. Hopefully it will change.

CH: Yes, hopefully it will, but not in my lifetime. [laughs.]

KM: What do you think makes a great quilt?

CH: I have lots of good friends in the quilt guild. We have wonderful quilters in the guild. They would knock your socks off, except that they are not daring enough, but they personally are dear friends of mine, and so that is why I said I hope the guild doesn't see what I'm telling you. Maybe we should delete some of it.

KM: That is up to you.

CH: It sounds kind of crabby to me.

KM: Let's move on. What do you think makes a great quilt?

CH: The first thing, even though this probably isn't what you want to hear, is going to be eye appeal. That is what attracts people to a great quilt. Other quilters are going to tell you "color" and I'm going to tell you contrast, "value." Value to me is more important than color. The first place your eye will go is the place that is the strongest value contrast. That is where your eye goes. I have to say eye appeal. I know the traditional quilters and I firmly believe this. I can almost tell who has come to art quilting through the art world, by being art major at the university or through the quilting world. The quilter knows the basics and will have the corners meet and will pay attention to how the binding is on and things like that. I think you have to learn the skills [the rules that work.] before you can break them. When you are saying what makes a great quilt, yes skills and craftsmanship do make a great quilt but it is in addition to the first thing, eye appeal. That is the first thing that will draw you to anything in art and in quilting.

KM: How do you want to be remembered?

CH: Oh, how do you want to be remembered? As a quilter and I guess as an experimenter, [laughs.] to see if we can push the outer boundaries. We are doing things today in quilting all over the world that were not even thought of when I jumped into the quilting business, like photo transfer. I know that is old hat, dyeing our own fabric, embellishing quilts. There was a time that embellishing was either beading or anything that wasn't fabric that was appliquéd on; this was just not done. Even in Hawaiian quilting you were forbidden to use black, that was absolutely out of the question. You were changing cultural traditions that way and you better not use black. Now they use black all the time as a decorative accent in Hawaiian quilting so things change.

KM: Very interesting. What else has changed? Anything?

CH: I don't know, just a lot of new techniques like the magazines that are out like Fiber Arts and Quilt Arts, Quilting Arts, they are just wonderful magazines and they surely do inspire the art quilter to try new things.

KM: Where generally do you get your materials?

CH: Where? [KM hums.] There are some fabric stores, Kaimuki Dry Goods and we do have Kona Bay's Fabric in Honolulu but they mostly sell wholesale. There were some quilt shops like the Quilt Hut and there is a place called the Calico Cat which is a fabric store: it is a really nice fabric store in fact. There are stores around and there are discount stores. I often buy from the mainland. Fabric Depot is one of them in the northwest that I deal with a lot and I also deal with Hancock's. What is really difficult is shipping batting over here. We do have Wal-Mart now that sells batting on a big role so if worse comes to worse [laughs.] you can do that.

KM: What are you working on right now and what are you planning on doing?

I just did two black and white pieces; I'm working intuitively. I'm not working with a pattern, I'm not working with any templates and I'm not planning things ahead of time like drawing a picture first and making a sketch of what I want to do, I'm just using the fabric and doing it. That is not a novel idea. All those Gee's Bend quilts were done the same way. Exactly the same way and so I find it very interesting because a lot of times I have what I call 'a happy accident'. I run out of fabric or I throw two pieces of fabric down and look at them and they are wonderful and I would never have thought of using them together. Things [laughs.] happen that are out of my control and I can't take credit for them either, it is just something that sometimes happens. What I started saying was I finished two black and white quilts. I used only black fabric and only white fabric, no pattern, just straight out flat pieces and they look almost like negatives or something. I have two male friends who are photographers and they will each get one, I think. I'm just shocked at how nice they turned out and it was just by accident. I don't know where that comes from, Karen I wish I could help you. I'm a nurse so I really think that creativity is kind of like a muscle. The more you use it the better it gets. It just seems to happen. That is probably a crazy thought but it seems to work that way.

KM: Are there any aspects of quiltmaking that you do not enjoy?

CH: Oh that I do not like. No I even enjoy basting it. I'm also a knitter and when you are done knitting like a sweater you still have to put it all together and I always wished that there was somebody that would do that for me [laughs.] because when I'm done knitting it, I want it to magically all fit together. I guess putting on the binding. I mean to me the quilt is finished and I wish somebody would come along and put on the binding for me. I can't think of anything else.

KM: What is your favorite part?

CH: Planning it and working creatively, piecing it or doing whatever I'm going to do to it. The actual quilting is only enhancing what I have already created. I don't find quilting boring and I often hand quilt it because there is something about hand quilting that just gives it a certain look, special.

KM: I also find it very relaxing.

CH: Yes, it is. I should have told you that quilting has gotten me through a lot of bad times in my life. Really bad times and I really don't want to talk about them, but I tell you if it weren't for quilting I just don't know what I would have done. Really, I didn't plan that to happen, but when you said it is relaxing, yes, it is wonderful in that respect. It was very therapeutic. I don't find it boring at all. Like some people said, 'How boring.' No, not for me.

KM: We have been talking for about forty minutes now. Is there anything that you would like to share with me that we haven't touched upon before we conclude?

CH: No, just what I said that quilting has been very beneficial for me in my life and I like being able to give something to friends that are very dear to me. The other thing is when I quilt I actually, I actually think about the people who have come before me who have quilted in the 1800's. I did want to tell you this one thing. We did Civil War quilts for the guild at one time. I was in charge of that [laughs.] and I actually got that pushed through. I read that book "Hidden in Plain View" [Jacqueline Tobin and Raymond Dober, Anchor, 2000.] so I wanted to do Civil War quilts and Hawaii was involved in the Civil War. Anyway I did this quilt, I pieced it and then I hand quilted the entire thing by candlelight. I wanted to see how they felt working at night after all their chores were done. All the baking and washing and taking care of the kids, I hand quilted it by candlelight at night. The quilting, can you guess what a good quilter would say? 'Oh my God. That's really sloppy.' I learned a lot from it. They didn't have the equipment. They didn't have the lighting we have and here it is a treasure to me, I will never do it again [laughs.] but it was an experience.

KM: How many nights did you sit under candlelight quilting?

CH: I can't tell you. My eyes got tired. I'm not young [laughs.] and I just kept plugging away at it. Oh months, probably eight or nine months.

KM: That is pretty amazing.

CH: It was amazing that they made quilts. They didn't have much in the way of fabric. I used all reproduction fabrics like they were using, they didn't have a choice like we do now I know that sounds really sentimental [laughs.] but I really do think of the sisters of the cloth, the ones that did this years ago. I research. Quilting has been found from 2,000 years ago like in Egypt and in China and it was quilted clothing used like armor and for warmth, also for bedding and I wonder about all those women that quilted, what their lives were like, if they enjoyed it, if they did it because they had to like they baked bread because they had to. Interesting.

KM: I think this is a good note to end on. I want to thank you very much for taking time.

CH: It was an absolute pleasure.

KM: Out of your day and I.

CH: I'm sorry I sounded so crabby in places. Sometimes it is very frustrating.

KM: I think it is good to express that though. It is what it is.

CH: I tell you about it, but I don't crab about it in public [laughs.] and I don't tell the guild that. That is just the way it is and maybe it will change a little at a time.

KM: I hope it does.

CH: I'm glad I talked to you.

KM: Thank you. We are going to conclude our interview at 5:57.