Kay Butler

Kay Butler

DE11

Kay Butler

Heather Gibson

12/16/2000

Iris Karp

Dover, Delaware

Heather Gibson

Heather Gibson (HG): This is Heather Gibson. It is 2:45. I'm interviewing Kay Butler in Dover, Delaware. Where are you from Kay? Because you're not a Delawarean, are you?

Kay Butler (KB): No, I'm not. I'm from Caroline County, Maryland. I live in the town of Denton.

HG: So how did you come about being here today?

KB: Well, as a matter of fact I'm a member of several other guilds, some of the Maryland guilds. But Cindy Mayan, my friend, had started a group over here in Dover and she wanted to get some experience into the guild, and I said, 'Sure, I'd love to be part of your group.' It is a bit of a distance but it's worth every minute. The friendships that you form and just the skills that you learn by belonging to such a guild is invaluable. So, I've enjoyed every minute of it.

HG: Okay, tell me about the quilt you brought today.

KB: Okay, this is a Christmas Mystery Quilt. We had a Mystery Quilt planned to do in our guild. There were four girls in the group. We were to select the fabric that we wanted, place it in a brown bag, and then pass it on to the next person in the group. And the next person would do a little bit more work, and its sort of like a "round robin" idea. And so, I started this endeavor with a visit to a quilt shop here in Dover called Rose Valley Quilt Shop. I bought all of my fabrics there, in the Amish Shop, from a very dear friend, Rachel Hershberger. And I had in my head that I wanted a Christmas design. Normally I'm a real purple-lover, a real purple fan. But I thought, 'I'm going to break from tradition here. I'm going to force myself to think in a different color realm here.' And I chose what you see here on the end is called the "zinger" fabric. A lot of the quilters will buy a zinger fabric, and they will pull from that zinger fabric the various colors that are in there, like the reds and the greens and the golds that you see. So, I bought the fabric. And in the brown bag we also include a journal. Each lady includes a journal, and they write the story of their lives in the journal. And what's taking place in their lives, if they're having difficulty with that step of the project that they've been doing. And that also documents the quilt and tells a little bit more about the quilt. It was interesting. I didn't think that this was going to get finished because we had two of the members pull out. It was an awesome task. You can see by all the different triangles. I need to stop and count those triangles someday. It's very geometric, as you can see. But two of the members did pull out, but we persevered, and we did get it together. I never dreamed that it would have so many places that it's been to. It's been to the Maryland State House on a display they had there for Christmas last year. That was truly an honor. This particular quilt was selected out of a hundred entries, and I guess they were just looking for something different.

HG: What was the name for the pattern that you used?

KB: I just call it a "Heartland Mystery". I don't know that it has any particular pattern. You see there are lots of squares. There are half square triangles, two different size triangles. And it consists of twenty blocks, so there are twenty blocks within the quilt. And then you assemble the blocks together. I wanted the quilt to be bigger, so I added the three extra borders. And it really took care of the bed-size that I was hoping to get.

HG: What is it about this pattern that appeals to you?

KB: I love the math involved. And I love the angular-ness, and the polygons. This is a quilt that I could use in my classroom. I'm also a math teacher to eighth graders. And I can take this quilt and I can teach them about the different kinds of angles and triangles. You've got polygons. It's a real study in geometry. So that appeals to me first and foremost. And then of course, even though it's not purple, I do like the contrast between the dark and the light. It's very Christmasy and as soon as we finish this interview it's going to go on my bed for the holidays.

HG: Wonderful. Tell me about the quilting, and how it was quilted.

KB: Okay. Well, because there are so many triangles in this quilt, and because we have so many seams, it would be crazy to hand-quilt this piece. And I knew it would be. So, there is a very proficient machine-quilter who lives down in St. Michaels by the name of Betty Evans who does a very fine job. She has a huge quilt machine, and she's able to quilt the quilt in a day or so.

HG: Is this a long-arm machine?

KB: This is a long-arm machine. I believe it's a Gammon, [Gammill.] but don't quote me on that. And she's able to knock two or three of these down in a day. And then she gives it back to me and puts the border on and make everything's squared up. Then we put the binding on. And instead of taking two or three years, which is how long it would probably take me to hand-quilt, I have a quilt ready to go by the holidays. From start to finish, this probably took a year-and-a-half because I do teach. That takes up a lot of my time. But if the teaching had not gotten in the way, I probably could've knocked it out in about six months.

HG: I hate asking something like this, but how much does it cost to have something quilted for you?

KB: You don't worry about that part. [laughs.] I'll tell you how much, though. You know, when you're making a quilt, you're creating a memory. And there's lots of stories. There's lots of people who are involved in a quilt like this. And I myself don't worry about the money. But it would probably cost, from start to finish, about $175.00.

HG: Is that just for the quilting?

KB: Everything. Binding, batting, everything. About $175.00 easily. So, you see we'll never sell this. They'll just give it away.

HG: Can you talk about the special meaning this particular quilt has for you?

KB: Well, I just love being involved in group efforts. I think there's a lot of power to that. First of all, you learn a lot of different kinds of skills whether it be on the sewing machine or doing hand-piecing. But the camaraderie that starts to develop in a group like this. You're trying to do your very best work. You're doing this for someone else. You're not going to be slip-shod in your work. You're going to take your time and you're going to make sure it's right if that means ripping out a thousand times. And you do it because you're giving up yourself and you want good representation of yourself. So, I love being involved in group efforts. It forces me to stay on the stick and get some things done, too. You know, my life is very involved with teaching. I spend hours in the classroom. My leisure time is very, very limited, and I have a family. But this forces me to get some very quality projects done. And it keeps me on my toes. And it keeps me striving for a higher quality project instead of just something makeshift. So, there are a lot of benefits to doing something like this.

HG: How much time do you have in a day or a week to quilt?

KB: Not enough, truly. [laughs.] I'm always telling the ladies in my guild, 'If you can just set aside ten minutes a day--I know it sounds so trivial--but ten minutes a day that ten minutes times seven is seventy minutes. And it will add up. You'll start to see something come to fruition after a while.' I pour a lot of my time into my quilting on the weekends. Friday nights, Saturday nights I am burning the midnight oil trying to get my projects done. And during the summers when I don't have grad work, I do a lot of quilting. I get most of my quilting done during the summer as opposed to a lot of people who are into gardening and a lot of them get their work done during the winter. During the summer is when I get my projects finished. If I were retired, I would love to be able to put at least four to five hours a day, easily. But I can't. So, I do what I can.

HG: Are you in the process of getting your graduate degree?

KB: I'm a teacher, so I've done some grad work.

HG: Oh, okay. I know that you are heavily involved in lots of quilting projects. Can you talk about your quilt-related activities?

KB: Well right now I'm the president of the Helping Hands Dover group here in Dover. I've just started my tenure with this group. My duties, so to speak, are to help with the planning of the programs every month. We have big-name speakers coming in to share what they know. We're trying to develop some very fine classes for the advanced and the beginner students as well. And just networking with women is real, real important to me. I never dreamed I'd be coming all the way over here to Dover to do this. I blame Cindy Mayan for all of it! It's all her fault. [laughter.] I wouldn't have done it if she hadn't of asked me. But it's been very rewarding. I've enjoyed meeting the ladies, and you do learn so much from them. And there's a good cross-section of ladies involved in the group, too. Not only some of the younger ones, but thank goodness, some of the older ones that we can share experiences with and some of their wisdom.

HG: How does your family react to your heavy involvement in quilting?

KB: I think they appreciate it. But I'll be real honest with you. I think at times they may have just a tad resentment. 'Oh, there she goes quilting again. Don't bother mom. She's quilting again.' 'Leave mom alone. She's quilting again.' [laughs.] I do have to balance that. I have to be careful and balance my time with them, so I try real hard not to be a fruitcake over it but it's hard not to. But they know my passion. They know they are well taken care of if something happens to me. They will be set in quilts, and I hope they appreciate all the work that I've done. [laughs.] But I think they appreciate it. I think at times they're proud. When this ended up in the State House, we went to visit it. They were real proud of mom then.

HG: Tell me about how you became interested in quilting.

KB: I've always been interested in sewing. I've sewn since I was very young. And as a young girl, I remember taking squares--little four-inch squares and I had hardly any knowledge of quilting. So, I would put together anything that I made leftover from scraps. I was putting cottons and polyesters and wools together and didn't realize that I shouldn't have been doing that. So, I have some pieces that I've made, you know, when I was very young. But a quilt shop had opened up in town, and I went to check out the quilt shop. I saw that they sold fabrics, and I was just hooked from then on. And every day after school I'd slide on into the quilt shop if I needed a little fix of a fat quarter or fabric, or something. Again, just the camaraderie with those gals I think was just so important. So, since 1985 I have quilted and have not stopped and hope I don't ever stop. It's been a great experience.

HG: How has your work progressed since then?

KB: Definitely, I think I can say I have improved. At first, I had real toe-catchers of stitches. Just huge. And I don't mind showing those to new ones that are learning the craft, because I don't want them to become discouraged. This craft can be very intimidating to someone that's just beginning. And I tell them, 'Look, if I can teach my 8th-graders how to do it, I can teach you how to do it. So, let's sit down here and we're going to learn how to do this together.' The 8th-graders, when I teach them how to quilt, we just take one stitch at a time at first. I show them the rocking stitch, eventually, if they're interested. You can see the little spark in some of their eyes. Some of them just can't be bothered with. There'll be a few that you can touch. And they'll go on with it and make little quilts of their own. It's great.

HG: What kind of projects do you make in your class?

KB: Well, we've made service-oriented projects. The state of Maryland requires the students to perform a certain amount of service learning in order to graduate. So, we've made lap quilts for the nursing home residents. Basically, what the children do is make a nine-patch block, which is very simplistic. It's nine squares. And we bring in the curriculum. So, we do some measurement. There's measurement involved in the lessons that I teach. And, of course, the geometry that's related to what I teach. And we take two or three days before Christmas and make little nine-patch blocks. And from there, we'll have parents come in. And they'll assemble the blocks together, and the children will tie the quilts. That's how they quilt. They tie the quilts. And they make beautiful lap quilts. Some of the other teachers are pea-green with envy--'Can I have that?' 'No this is for the nursing home residents. You can't have that.' [laughs.] It's right funny because they'll come back to me five or six years later and say, 'Alright, what did you remember about math?' And it's the quilting. It's the quilting experience that they've had that they remember. So that's kind of cool.

HG: Are there other quilters or quilts in your family?

KB: No, amazingly not. My mother was a seamstress and she taught me how to sew. And my grandmother sewed a bit. But neither one of them quilted to my knowledge. So, I was just very lucky in meeting up with the right people at the right time and finding the quilt shop that I was telling you about to get me on to my journey of quilting.

HG: Talking about quilt shops--can you talk about the differences between quilt shops and big fabric warehouses like JoAnn's? Do you see differences between the two?

KB: Yes, there certainly is. I feel sorry for the little quilt shop, because it's so hard for them to make a start at it. They're not as big as the big businesses like JoAnn Fabrics. And JoAnn Fabrics does not sell the same quality of fabrics that the quilt shops do. When I'm making my quilts, I do not think about what it costs per yard. I mean, I'm concerned, but I want the best. I use the Hoffman's and the Moda's and if I can afford it, the Liberty Fabrics. But if I do buy fabric at JoAnn's I have to be careful because they are seconds. They're what they call seconds. They don't hold up as well. Sometimes the fabrics bleed. And so, if I'm making an heirloom quilt, I don't buy fabrics from JoAnn's for that. If I want just a simple wall-hanging that's not going to need to be washed too much, then yeah, I might pick up a fabric or two. Most of my fabrics come from these little quilt shops because I want to keep them in business for a long, long time. And you don't get near the quality of service. The quilt shop owners bend over backwards. They understand that you have to have just the right color. They go to great extremes to make sure you get just what you're looking for. And their ideas are very helpful. Sometimes you do come to blocks. You think, 'Alright, I'm stumped. I don't know how to work this particular situation out. What can I do?' And you present to them the problem. 'Well, why don't you use this fabric?' or 'Why don't you try this?' And they're loaded with ideas. I value the little quilt shops and I believe in supporting them as much as I can.

HG: Have you ever taught quilting outside of your math class?

KB: In my home, but not commercially. Never for money. I don't think I'd ever want to go into it for the money end of things.

HG: Have you ever sold a quilt?

KB: I've been asked to sell my quilts, but no. I'll probably end up giving them all away. I don't do it to make the money. I do it because it's a way of giving of myself. It's what I am. What I'm all about. They'll all be gifts. For myself, I don't believe in making money off of my quilt making.

HG: What do you think makes a great quilt?

KB: Well, I think there needs to be a story to it. This is very strange. I hope I'm not misunderstood when is say this, but I can go into a fabric store and certain fabrics talk to me. [laughs.] They speak to me. You know, you'll see a certain print and you'll think of a memory. And all of a sudden, you're finding yourself with five or six different prints there. And they start to come together as you're designing. So, it's the stories, the memories that are going on in your brain as you put together this quilt. That's the power behind quilting. But of course, the color. There needs to be some contrast. You don't use wimpy colors. You use strong, bold colors. I know some people are into the pastels, but even with the pastels there needs to be some contrast there to really make it speak. For a quilt to be memorable it would need to be able to--when you put your head down on the pillow at night, you just can't get your mind off a certain quilt. That kind of quilt is a very powerful quilt, one that has spoken to you. I like the geometric-ness of a lot of the abstract quilts. I like the social messages that are coming through a lot of the latest quilts that are coming out. I think that's important. Quilts have a story to tell.

HG: How do you think geometric quilts relate to and differ from modernist works or cubist art made in the traditional art form of painting?

KB: Well, that would be hard to answer. I guess when I'm looking at my geometric quilts, and I don't always just do triangles and squares and stuff. I do some soft appliqué. When I put together a geometric quilt, I make sure in the quilting there is some softness or concentric design. Because otherwise it would be too angular and too stark and too--you know, you don't want people to be repelled by your quilts. You want them to be drawn to your quilts. So, the angular-ness needs to be taken care of or softened. And in this design, you can see I've used the fleur-de-lis, which has lots of little circulars in it. It kind of brings it all together. Comparing that to some of the abstract, I guess it just depends on the medium that you're using. I use fabric as my medium and others use paint as long as it has a story to tell. You just can't slop a bunch of paint on a canvas and say, 'Okay, that's art.' I want to tell a story. And that to me is what's important.

HG: Now when you're at a quilt show, what draws you to certain quilts and makes you say, 'Wow.'

KB: I go to the appliqué quilts first. When I go to a quilt show, I have to absorb the show. I cannot do a quilt show in an hour. It takes me two to three hours. People don't understand these things. I am drawn to the appliqué quilts first. I check out the stitches and I check out the colors that they've used, and the story that's behind the quilt. And then I force myself to come away from that and think, 'Okay, now try to put yourself in other people's shoes. And try to appreciate the other quilts that are being made, too.' So, then I'll start to look at some of the others. But I may go back to a quilt four or five times if it's really spoken to me. But it's the appliqué quilts that have the real story, I think.

HG: Do you do more appliqué than piecing?

KB: Oh, yes. I didn't used to. If I'm going to finish a quilt quickly, I will go with the pieced. If I want to take my time and not worry about the time element, I'll go with the appliqué designs.

HG: Talk to me about quilt documentation.

KB: Okay, quilt documentation is really important. I'm a real champion of that because one day if we don't tell these stories and we don't tell people what we were going through, and everything that was happening with these quilts. The stories are going to be lost. So, every quilt that I make, I try to put a signature block on the back. And some of them are real elaborate, and some of them are not. It depends upon how much time I have to make that signature block. On the signature block on the back of the quilt, I like to put my name and my address. Sometimes a story. Sometimes a signature block can take up a good foot! I'm reminded of a neighbor friend who lived right across the road from me. She knew how crazy I am about quilting, and she had two older quilts up in her attic. And they were old. There were prints in her quilts that were mourning prints. They were very black and stark. She didn't know that. I saw that right away when I looked at the quilt. It was an Ohio Star. But it wasn't documented, and she was not well. She had some health problems. I made it a cause of mine. I worried her to death, 'Document that quilt.' And finally, I said, 'Let me do it for you. Give me the story.' I wrote it down and I transferred the story using pigment pen to muslin. I wrote about the grandmother that had made this quilt, and where she lived and how many children she had and all of that. And I put that on the back of the quilt. We did feature that in a quilt show we had. Then a year later this lady died. Now her grandchildren, when they have that quilt, have the story of that quilt. And great grandma made this quilt. So, I saved a little bit of history when I did that! And I try to do that with all the quilt I have. It's so important to document. Not only with quilts but with pictures or photographs or anything like that. I mean, how many pictures do you have lying around in a trunk somewhere and you have no earthly idea who these people are. You think they're part of your family, but no one took the time to write 'Aunt so-and-so' and the date. Just the date is enough.

HG: What are some other ways the art of quilting can be preserved for the future, and continue to flourish as it does now?

KB: How can quilting be preserved for the future? Well, I take pictures of all my quilts. I hate to say this, but I have more pictures of my quilts than my family. So I have separate photo albums. I have separate photo albums for just my quilts, and then of course photo albums for my dear beloved family. But that will document them. It will also, God forbid if something happens to my quilts, I can go to my insurance company and say, 'Well, this is what it looked like.' To take pictures of your quilts and to share those. Make photo albums and tell the stories to your children and anybody who might be interested. I know I have bored people to death about my love for quilting. That's just too bad. They know I'm a real quilt fanatic, and probably on my gravestone they'll have a quilt design etched there somehow. That'll be fine. When I pass away, I hope there will be quilts all around me, of the quilts that I've made. That will be my statement. When people walk in, they'll just laugh. It'll be a joyous occasion.

HG: Have you taught any of your family members to quilt? Or have they displayed interest?

KB: My daughter. We started with the cheater's cloth. There's a cheater's cloth print that people can buy. That's what I recommend with people just starting out. The design's already there. It's just a printed panel, something pleasing. You put a piece of batting and backing to it. Put it in a frame, and you just start teaching that rocking stitch, the quilting stitch if they're intimidated with the piecing. You try to get them caught, addicted. Sometimes that'll grab them. I have a fair amount of cheater's cloth panels that I've quilted. I bought a Double Wedding Ring piece of fabric, two to three yards of that one time. And I quilted the daylights out of it. Every inch was covered. And I entered it in a quilt show. And I was standing behind this quilt that I had made, and I heard the lady say, 'My that's a beautiful quilt. Look at the quilting stitches.' They did not know that it was not pieced. They had no idea. And I'm just laughing the whole time because I quilted it to death, every inch was covered, they had no idea. So, there's a place even for cheater's cloth.

HG: Why is quilting important to your life?

KB: It's important because of the camaraderie it promotes. You form such wonderful bonds of friendship with such classy people. I don't know too many quilters that aren't classy people. Most quilters that I know believe in the right things. They have good values. They're good, strong people who believe in the quality of life. I haven't met too many quilters who I don't like. They believe in family, and they believe in doing what's right, and they believe in giving of themselves all the time. Most quilters that I know. The camaraderie is the thing that draws me to quilting more than anything. There are times when I like to quilt by myself. I don't want anybody around me. But there are other times when I have just got to pick up the phone and call a quilting friend down the road and say, 'Do you know the piece of fabric that I just bought?' And to most people they would say, 'Who cares?' But she understands. She understands that connection. And then we kind of go off the deep end and talk. You know, just the camaraderie I think is just priceless.

HG: What do you think makes a great quilter, then?

KB: A great quilter is one who is willing to share what they've learned. I know the quilting friends that I value the most are the ones who have taught me something, some of the skills that I've learned. Or who will share a piece of fabric that you can use in your quilt. That piece of fabric is not just a thing anymore. All of a sudden, it's like them that's being incorporated into your quilt. So, I think a great quilter is one who's willing to share and give of themselves.

HG: Now do you think that your quilts reflect your region? We have this question that we always ask and it's kind of a tough question because people use patterns that are circulated all over the world. Do you see any link between the quilts of your region in Maryland and Delaware?

KB: I don't really because a lot of us are getting our designs off the Internet now that are from Australia or California. Maybe at one time when there was not such a thing as a computer. But now we can print out all these wonderful paper-piecing designs, or an appliqué design that's come from all over the world. And so, a lot of us are getting into Brazilian embroidery that we use on our quilts, or some other kind of technique. So, it's going to be hard to say that this was a Maryland quilt. I think that's going to be hard for future generations to be able to do that.

HG: So, do you like to put elements of other cultures into your quilts?

KB: At times I have. The fleur-de-lis design, of course, is French. And my mother was part French, and I like to think that it relates to a little bit of her heritage. So, I look for things like that when I'm selecting a quilt stencil to use.

HG: What has happened to the quilts that you have made through the progression of your quilting years?

KB: I've given so many away. I've kept a few, too. I think it's okay to be a little selfish. There are some that I have that I will hold on to until my death. But most of the ones I've made are gone. They're in someone else's household now to enjoy, to love, to appreciate and remember, and hopefully treasure. So, I think it's the power behind quilting, too, to be able to give of yourself and not regretting it. I made a fan quilt just this year for a teacher-friend of mine who has had to relocate from Maryland to Tennessee. And I had no qualms whatsoever letting it go. It was a knock-out quilt. My husband said, 'You're giving that away?' And I said, 'Yeah, no hard strings attached.' She'll be comforted. She knows I've put my heart, blood and soul into it. She knows there is a crazy quilt nut in Maryland that was nice enough to give that to her. So, I have ties with my quilts, but not in a selfish way.

HG: Why do you think it is so pleasing for you to give them to somebody else, not asking for money or anything in return?

KB: Because it's the ultimate way I can give of me. This is me. I put my time, which is very limited. So, the hundred or so hours that it took to make that quilt, that was my valuable time and that I'm giving to you now. And you better dog gone sakes appreciate it. So, the time element is giving of yourself.

HG: As a workingwoman with a family, describe your quilting work-area to me in your home.

KB: Oh my, it's everywhere! It's everywhere. [laughs.] I do have a room down in the basement that I share. Part of the room is where I keep all of my books for the classroom. And then the other half is all of my fabric stash that is absolutely ungodly! It's enough to probably run a little quilt-shop. I make no apologies for it. It is one of the vices I allow myself. I will have my palette to work with. If I'm looking for a certain blue, I don't want to have to go to the quilt shop and get it. I want it to be right there, and it will be most of the time. When I get involved in some of these mystery quilts that I've done, I rarely have to go out and get the fabric. It's usually right there in my stash. So, I have that room downstairs. But more often than not, I like my family around me when I quilt. So, I'll be out on the porch. It's a closed in porch where we have our computer and our piano. So, the kids are practicing their piano while I'm piecing, or they're playing a game on the porch while I'm there. I want them around me. I don't like to be holed up in a basement somewhere. I want to be with them, too. And I do have a little quilter's bench right there in the living room that's loaded with pins. God, forbid you come next to it because you're going to end up getting a needle into you somewhere. [laughs.] And while the kids are watching TV, that's my space. Leave it the hay alone. Don't bother it. And I tell them, 'It's mom's space,' and they don't bother it. I'm able again to be with them in the same room. So, I have little niches just about in every room; just places where I've kept fabric and projects that I'm trying to keep track of and organized and so forth. So, it's not all in one room. I don't have a studio per se. I will one day perhaps.

HG: Do you work on any other project than quilts? Any other crafts or art forms?

KB: I have done some cross stitch. Quite a bit of cross stitch before I got into this hot and heavy. This consumes you. I did a little bit of oil painting. I enjoyed that but I haven't touched those paints for a good decade now. This calls to me every day. And my goodness, when there's a snow day watch out. I mean the teachers are worse than the kids praying, 'Oh God, just two inches will do it,' because in Maryland they call a snow day for two inches. And as soon as we get word, we get out the fabric. We get out the scissors. Here we go. Call the friends, 'What are you going to work on first?' And the whole day is consumed with this quilting project. You know, you're stuck inside. You can't go anywhere. It's icy outside. So, snow days are a gift from God, truly, to quilting teachers.

HG: Well, we have a few minutes left. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? Or that you wished that I'd asked?

KB: Well, I guess that I just want everybody to know that quilting can be such an important part of people's lives. And I know there are a lot of people who don't share this passion of course, but if people could just understand the time that's put into this and the thought process. When a lady is working on a quilt, you know a lot of times I pray over my quilts. I pray for different ones that are important to me. It's a very productive time. You're not only taking care of people physically, but you're taking care of them spiritually as well. And you're thinking about them, and you're done a lot of problem-solving the whole time. Some people say that quilting is mindless. And maybe the rocking-stitch is. But my mind's going off in a thousand directions. I'm thinking about what I'm going to teach the next day, or about the lesson unit that I want to plan, or this friend that I want to make a gift for so there's a lot of problem-solving that's involved in the quilting process, too and just the sharing and the stories. And the whole personableness of quilting is so powerful to me.

HG: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming all the way here and taking part in this program. Obviously, it will preserve your stories. I'll close this out. This is Heather Gibson with Kay Butler, and the time now is 3:23.